Help Requested From Appraisers or Others in the Know

By
Real Estate Agent with Special Miami Homes BK 3126272

In the past, my Active Rain colleagues have always been an incredible source of information.

I just had an appraisal come back on one of my sales that is killing the deal.  So what else is new, right?

Well, apart from the commonplace complaint, I have some issues which I believe are valid.  So I'm reaching out to the AR community with some questions:

  • Can an FHA appraisal be contested?  I believe some gross errors were made on this report.
  • If so, is there a time-frame?  Someone threw out a 72 hour time to contest an appraisal.  Not sure where this came from.
  • Should a conscientious appraiser make adjustments for condition if he is using run-down foreclosures as comps?  There is a line item for condition.  Why is this not being used?  The subject property is in PRISTINE condition and is being compared to homes that had cabinets missing, mold on the walls, a/c, water heaters and appliances stolen.
  • Does the appraiser signing the report have to inspect the property?  Why do I ask?  Because the person who signed my report was not at the home.  Someone else was, and her name is nowhere to be found on the report, not as a trainee, an assistant or otherwise.  And the appraiser signing conveniently forgot to check off that he DID or DID NOT inspect the home.  Uh huh. Very convenient.
  • Who governs appraisers?  If I have to go to someone to discuss this particular appraiser's actions, who do I go to?

Please, appraisers out there, this is NOT a knock on your profession.  I have been in the business 5 years and not once have I come across an appraisal that I thought needed contesting.  Like everyone else, I have had deals go south because of appraisal issues,  But not once did I find that there was anything remotely unethical going on.  This time, I am not so sure.  At the very least some gross incompetency.

Sorry for not prettying up my post.  No pictures.  No bolds.  Just the facts. 

Thanks for any help you can offer.

Posted by

Follow Broker Maggie on Twitter        CDPE Realtor

Search Miami Homes Free Miami Home Values Contact Broker Maggie

Maggie Dokic, REALTOR, CDPE, SFR is a licensed real estate broker in the state of Florida selling residential real estate in Miami, Palmetto Bay, Pinecrest, Coral Gables, Gables by the Sea, High Pines, the Redland and other select areas of SW Miami-Dade County.

Maggie has earned her SFR certification to be able to better serve the needs of her customers in today's non-traditional real estate market.  SFR is a Short Sale, Foreclosure Resource Specialist.  Designees have been trained to understand the highly specialized options available to Sellers facing short sales & foreclosures and Buyers looking to buy them.

For more information on our local real estate market, or to see or sell a home in Miami, Palmetto Bay, Pinecrest, Coral Gables or the Redland, visit my Miami Real Estate blog or contact me at Maggie (at) TheBlogThatAteMiami (dot) com.

The opinions expressed herein, are those of the author, and not necessarily of  Keller Williams Realty.

None of this information is to be deemed legal or financial advice.  Please contact your attorney or accountant for same.

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Rainmaker
307,627
Maggie Dokic
Special Miami Homes - Miami, FL
CDPE, SFR, Pinecrest | Palmetto Bay |

Hi everyone,  Thanks so very much for sharing of your expertise and opinions.

I had not returned to this post due to a very heavy workday.  I still have quite a few contracts to review and must keep this short.

I will return and post on the outcome of this.  The gentleman who commented above me, Frank Gregoire, actually called me and provided much helpful information.

Once again, Active Rain comes through with flying colors.

Mar 03, 2010 12:11 PM #30
Rainmaker
63,539
Millie C. Legenhausen
Calcagni Real Estate, Hamden, Connecticut - Hamden, CT
CRS, GRI, CIPS, MBA, Realtor

Looks like you got a bad appraisal from a very lazy appraiser. The comps were poor and the lack of a signature on the report shows a total lack of professionalism. Not acceptable.

Mar 03, 2010 12:30 PM #31
Rainer
34,818
Pablo Santibanez
FastAppraisals4u - Santa Clarita, CA

Hi Maggie,

I'd like to piggyback on Jessie's response.  FHA requires that the appraiser be certified to be FHA approved.  You may have had a trainee or licensed appraiser who inspected the property who works for a certified appraiser.  This appraiser then simply signed the report as if it was completed by him/her  (This is all based on an assumption I don't know the specific facts)  If this is the case it is FRAUD and the appraiser would face serious disciplinary action as a result.  This type of activity is just one of the root causes of the mess we are in and a few bad apples are doing "business as usual"  With lower fees and out of area appraisers appraising properties outside of there expertise as a result of the HVCC guidelines.  You will be confronted with these types of issues unfortunately until some changes are made.

Interview the appraiser when they call to inspect ask them if they are familiar with the area, where are they coming from? I would make it a point to provide the appraiser with comparables you feel are comparable to your home at the inspection and a list of the attributes.  "That's not my job, it's the appraiser's doesn't cut it anymore" your job is to assure the successful outcome for your clients.  This will not solve this problem 100% but will help from it happening more often than not.

Mar 03, 2010 12:44 PM #32
Rainer
56,463
Megan Phelps
RE/MAX Heritage - Fort Worth, TX

I am going through the same thing right now! I've been working with a buyer who is on house #2. Our first deal fell apart because the underwriter required a "desk review" that cut our value by $9K. We weren't able to make it work with the seller.

With house #2, the initial appraisal came in fine but because it was purchased by the seller less than 6 months ago and is now being sold for 100% more, the underwriter is requiring a second appraisal.

It's getting very complicated to sell properties, especially in low price ranges where the neighborhoods have been heavily affected by foreclosures. I wish you the best because I understand what you're going through!

Mar 03, 2010 01:36 PM #33
Rainer
22,295
Richard Johnston
San Fernando Valley - RE/MAX Grand Central - Sherman Oaks, CA

It's important to at least have the appraisers information handy.  That way if something is wierd in the report, then you can at least contact the appraiser to discuss the matter. 

Loan officers often mention that they cannot in no way be in contact with the appraiser.  If you find an error and the buyer is paying for it, then every effort should be made to dispute the findings.

Hope that helps.

Mar 03, 2010 02:27 PM #34
Anonymous
Pamela Crowley (Florida)

Maggie, I'm so glad Frank contacted you.  There are a number of appraisers working on this for you in the background. FHA is being contacted.

For any Realtors, please meet any appraisers at your properties and ask for photo identification from them.  One of the worst things that can be done by any appraiser is to sign a Fannie form appraisal report on the left signature side as the appraiser, but was not there.  In Florida at the least, this is cause for the appraiser license to be revoked with additional fines very possible.

For the primary FHA appraisal, it must be on the URAR Form 1004.  This means the appraiser assigned through the FHA website by the lender is the appraiser that MUST be there to do a full FHA compliant property observation/inspection.  As soon as that appraisal report is sent to the lender (or AMC) and the assigned FHA appraiser signed it but wasn't there, it's Federal Fraud, wire fraud.

As far as asking for a reconsideration of value, that can be done.  Please make absolutely SURE your are providing qualified sales that are at least newer sales of properties that are nearer in proximity and more similar to the subject property than what the appraiser used in their report.  DOCUMENT with proof if you know of conditions that should be adjusted for.  Too many times when I was appraising a Realtor would dispute a value and provide not only sales that were not comparable to the subject, but would even provide the same properties I already used in the report.  Bottom line is, if you are going to dispute the value, you need to prove it with FACTS.

In many markets, the short sales and REOs are the majority of the market and must be considered.  I am in Florida and there are many short sales and REOs that are in pristine condition.  Remember, not ALL sales qualify as comps; comps are the newest, nearest, most similar to the subject qualified sales.  Concession need to be accounted for and deducted from the comp's sale price as applicable.  Concessions involved with the subject contract are not adjusted for, but concession involved in the sales used as comps need to be adjusted for.  Sales found to have fraud involved are not qualified as comps for anything, but you do have to know how to find out about them to disqualify them - or qualify them.  Just because a sale is recorded doesn't make it a valid comp.

The best thing all Realtors need to do to help the appraisal process is to disclose everything about the property and sale terms and conditions, truthfully.

On another note, the HVCC that so many are screaming about is mostly a rewrite of the existing Federal Banking Laws.  The repercussions of it that the AMCs took over the appraisal process didn't have to happen, but that is what the biggest banks and title companies wanted, so that is what happened.  These AMCs are now costing all us, money lost by the appraisers and the local and State economies that it's been taken out of; lost deals due to the AMC being primarily concerned with finding the cheapest appraiser they can find and ignoring competence and quality; the AMCs/title companies/lenders sharing the inflated appraisal fees taken out of the pockets of the consumers and your buyers.  Verify who really is there as the appraiser.  Go as far as taking a picture of the appraiser.  Don't let these frauds continue because they harm all of us.  Don't let them harm you and your clients.

Mar 03, 2010 04:20 PM #35
Anonymous
Pamela Crowley (Florida)

Maggie, I'm so glad Frank contacted you.  There are a number of appraisers working on this for you in the background. FHA is being contacted.

For any Realtors, please meet any appraisers at your properties and ask for photo identification from them.  One of the worst things that can be done by any appraiser is to sign a Fannie form appraisal report on the left signature side as the appraiser, but was not there.  In Florida at the least, this is cause for the appraiser license to be revoked with additional fines very possible.

For the primary FHA appraisal, it must be on the URAR Form 1004.  This means the appraiser assigned through the FHA website by the lender is the appraiser that MUST be there to do a full FHA compliant property observation/inspection.  As soon as that appraisal report is sent to the lender (or AMC) and the assigned FHA appraiser signed it but wasn't there, it's Federal Fraud, wire fraud.

As far as asking for a reconsideration of value, that can be done.  Please make absolutely SURE your are providing qualified sales that are at least newer sales of properties that are nearer in proximity and more similar to the subject property than what the appraiser used in their report.  DOCUMENT with proof if you know of conditions that should be adjusted for.  Too many times when I was appraising a Realtor would dispute a value and provide not only sales that were not comparable to the subject, but would even provide the same properties I already used in the report.  Bottom line is, if you are going to dispute the value, you need to prove it with FACTS.

In many markets, the short sales and REOs are the majority of the market and must be considered.  I am in Florida and there are many short sales and REOs that are in pristine condition.  Remember, not ALL sales qualify as comps; comps are the newest, nearest, most similar to the subject qualified sales.  Concession need to be accounted for and deducted from the comp's sale price as applicable.  Concessions involved with the subject contract are not adjusted for, but concession involved in the sales used as comps need to be adjusted for.  Sales found to have fraud involved are not qualified as comps for anything, but you do have to know how to find out about them to disqualify them - or qualify them.  Just because a sale is recorded doesn't make it a valid comp.

The best thing all Realtors need to do to help the appraisal process is to disclose everything about the property and sale terms and conditions, truthfully.

On another note, the HVCC that so many are screaming about is mostly a rewrite of the existing Federal Banking Laws.  The repercussions of it that the AMCs took over the appraisal process didn't have to happen, but that is what the biggest banks and title companies wanted, so that is what happened.  These AMCs are now costing all us, money lost by the appraisers and the local and State economies that it's been taken out of; lost deals due to the AMC being primarily concerned with finding the cheapest appraiser they can find and ignoring competence and quality; the AMCs/title companies/lenders sharing the inflated appraisal fees taken out of the pockets of the consumers and your buyers.  Verify who really is there as the appraiser.  Go as far as taking a picture of the appraiser.  Don't let these frauds continue because they harm all of us.  Don't let them harm you and your clients.

Mar 03, 2010 04:25 PM #36
Rainmaker
307,627
Maggie Dokic
Special Miami Homes - Miami, FL
CDPE, SFR, Pinecrest | Palmetto Bay |

Pamela, thank you so much for the very thorough comment.  I am sure many others will find it immensely helpful as they face similar situations.

Frank was very generous with his time and knowledge.  I thank whoever forwarded him this post.  I was blown over by his credentials and the information he so willingly shared.

Your comment about appraisers working on this for me in the background truly humbled me.  I am very lucky indeed.  And others who find themselves in similar situations can benefit from the advice you've provided.  Thank you again.

To all of you with knowledge, who have shared it here, thank you.  I dislike the fact that there is dishonesty and incompetency in any field.  It reflects badly on the ones that are both honest and competent.  It also does something worse: provide a huge disservice to the consumer. 

But your comments show people that not only are we offended by it, we will fight wrong with right.

Thank you all again for your time and valuable input.

Mar 03, 2010 06:26 PM #37
Ambassador
884,211
Lane Bailey
Century 21 Results Realty - Suwanee, GA
Realtor & Car Guy

My understanding is that you can't challenge the appraisal.  Only the underwriter can file the actual challenge...  And it does follow the property for 6 months.  I have just been through this.  The appraiser gave NO value for 3+ acres of land... 

Mar 03, 2010 09:52 PM #41
Rainmaker
98,887
Rick Phillips
Frankly Realty - Old Town - Alexandria, VA
I care about you and your transaction.

You guys have to stop believing that it's the appraisal that's "killing the deal!"

I hear that a lot, or other phrases like "contentious appraiser."

You say they're "just the facts," but your writing is very emotional.

So take a deep breath and do the following:

1 - Demand a copy of the current report--the one with no checkbox checked.
2 - Demand the name of the person doing the inspection.
3 - Research (through the state) both names.  Determine their status: trainee, licensed, certified res, certified gen, etc., and ascertain if there have been any previous violations.
4 - Make a list of all errors in the report.  Consider having another appraiser help you, or pay for a Review.
5 - Look at all the comp photos.  Determine if they were taken by the appraiser or are from the MLS.

Your chief goal is to determine if the appraisal is truly faulty.  If it is, demand that the mistakes be corrected.

Your second goal is to make sure this doesn't happen again. And by that I mean getting a sloppy, not low appraisal.

The person inspecting (for FHA) must be a Certified Residential or General Appraiser.

Comp photos (for FHA) MUST be taken by the appraiser.

Mar 03, 2010 10:19 PM #42
Rainmaker
98,887
Rick Phillips
Frankly Realty - Old Town - Alexandria, VA
I care about you and your transaction.

With regards to Jesse's comment, I don't believe that is the case.  I just took the USPAP update, and I would swear that this isn't the case.  The person signing the report is the one who certifies that everything in it is true.

Let's just assume for example that both appraisers were Certified and on the FHA roster, but one did the inspection and one wrote the report.  I believe that the one doing the inspeciton, by signing the report, would be certifying all these other opinions about things he didn't even research. 

I believe that it is possible to have inspected the property but then not sign the report. 

Anyway, these are things that most of us never think about, because we end up doing it all. 

In this case, it's important that she find out the name of the person who did the inspection.  If that name isn't on record with the state, then there is a problem.

Mar 03, 2010 10:28 PM #43
Rainmaker
123,084
Charles Dailey
iLoan - NMLS ID#4474 - Saint Paul, MN

Palmetto and Everyone Else Having this Problem,

Most of what needs to be said on this has already been said (call your FHA Home Ownership Center, contest through your lender, everything Richard said, etc).  The only thing I would add is that a DE underwrter IS the person who comes up with the value for HUD/FHA loan purposes while the appraiser comes up with the estimate of value.  Big difference!!!

I am primarily a loan officer but I spent the better part of today completing a HUD Form 54114 on a manufactured home appraisal in the middle of Wisconsin (argh).  As a DE underwriter (when I actually do underwrite a file), I have the authority to increase or decrease the value as justified (in this case, I had to lower it by 8500).  I highly encourage everyone concerned with this issue to download and retain a copy of this form becuase it will be the stick by which your appraisal is judged.  Should something like this happen, collect all the evidence, give it to the loan officer and tell him or her to get it to the DE underwriter and appeal to him/her to apply a more reasonable value for the "value for HUD/FHA loan purposes."

If you're really feeling nerdy, you can sift through these: http://www.hud.gov/offices/hsg/sfh/ref/chap1.cfm.

As a loan officer, I use a good AMC for these.  If this appraisal was ordered through a halfway decent AMC (and it may not have been but it's worth looking into), there's probably a built in appeal system at this company.  Yeah, I can't talk to the appraiser but I can submit a written appeal with attached evidence and if it's a serious issue, I can get on the phone with the AMC's chief review appraiser.  You might want to see if that's an option because if an AMC found out that one of their appraisers was doing work like this, they'd get fired on the spot.

Good luck.

-Charles Dailey

Mar 03, 2010 10:44 PM #44
Ambassador
1,600,717
Christine Donovan
Donovan Blatt Realty - Costa Mesa, CA
Broker/Attorney 800-610-7253 DRE01267479 - Costa M

I wish I knew the answers to these questions.  I have a situation where 2 appraisals came in significantly over asking price, triggered a review appraisal, which then cut the value by a huge amount.  I spent several hours preparing a rebuttal and am awaiting the outcome while a foreclosure hangs in the balance.

Mar 03, 2010 11:37 PM #45
Rainmaker
558,767
Chris Olsen
Olsen Ziegler Realty - Cleveland, OH
Broker Owner Cleveland Ohio Real Estate

I can't add anything that hasn't been said already, some good advice here.

Mar 03, 2010 11:48 PM #46
Rainer
206,203
Jesse Skolkin
Independent New York State Certified Real Estate Appraiser - Fresh Meadows, NY

@Rick:

On form 1004, the certification the appraiser signs contains the following:

Scope of Work states (in part):

The appraiser must, at a minimum (1) perform a complete visual inspection of the interior and exterior areas of the subject property, (2) inspect the neighborhood, (3) inspect each of the comparable sales from the street, (4) research, verify and analyze data from reliable public records and/or private sources, and (5) report his or her analysis, opinions and conclusions in this appraisal report.

Certification #2 states:

"I have performed a complete visual inspection of the interior and exterior areas of the subject property.  I reported the condition of the improvements in factual, specific terms.  I identified and reported the physical deficiencies that could affect the livability, soundness, or structural integrity of the property."

Anyone who signs this certification as the appraiser but does not inspect the property has willfully committed fraud.  Anyone who inspected the property but did not sign the certification for someone else who did sign the certification has entered into a conspiracy to commit fraud.

Mar 04, 2010 05:22 AM #47
Rainmaker
307,627
Maggie Dokic
Special Miami Homes - Miami, FL
CDPE, SFR, Pinecrest | Palmetto Bay |

Lane, thanks for the clarification.  You're absolutely right.  The report can be contested, but by the Lender who ordered it.  I can only get facts that I think are relevant to the Lender.  I've learned so much regarding this in 48 hours!

Rick, thanks for your input.  After the "woe is me" initial blow, the dust settled and the fact remained that the person who signed the report, did not inspect the home, nor was the person who did inspect the home listed on the report.  This alone is reason enough for me to desire that a different appraisal be ordered.   According to many, including Jesse below you, this is fraud.  I think the comps used by the appraiser represent the market.  We do have a lot of foreclosures closing.  But not adjusting for condition in any way brought the perceived value of this home to a place where I don't think it belongs.  And the fact that he didn't inspect the subject tells me he has no basis for making adjustments anyway.  He has no first hand experience of the subject or the comps.  I sincerely appreciate what you've added to the conversation here.  You appraisers are really coming through with some great info.

Charles, thanks for some great links and lively comment.  I just may find myself feeling nerdy enough to read that this weekend.  LOL 

Christine, best of luck with your efforts.  I hope the information that the commenters have presented here will be useful to you.

Chris, I agree about the good advice.  I would even up it to excellent.  =)

Jesse, thanks for the facts.  Two other appraisers I spoke with (due to this post) concur with you.  You are not the first person to mention F-R-A-U-D.  After being presented with all this information, I feel more confident in my pursuing this. 

Thanks again to everyone for your comments. 

Mar 04, 2010 05:56 AM #48
Anonymous
Andrea Lacerda

I have been dealing with an appraisal issue for the last 6 days. The home was supposed to close Friday with a commitment from big major bank  The appraisal came in at value however they asked the appraiser for 2 additional comps . The appraiser provided the 2 additional comps. The underwriter felt a need to have a field review (another appraisal of the property by a different company). Now the second appraiser came in $10,000 lower. The second appriasor used comps that needed work where as the home being sold is all redone. I have tons of supporting documentation, photos, statements from the listing realtors, no adjustments for condion etc, ...

Meanwhile based on the commitment seller moved to another state and buyer had plans to move the next day based on the commitment. The value on the first appriasal came in acceptable. I did not think there should have been any concerns since the property is mint, was priced according to area sales etc. I am 15 years in business and this is my direct market area. How is this possible that the large banks can do this to our customers. Both buyer and seller have significant losses and neither agrees with the appraisal. The sellers attorney served time of essence.

We are disputing appraisal now. The underwriter is reviewing again. This took many days for them to pay attention and had to take it to a senior management level. The seller happens to have his mortgage with the same bank. There is no money for the seller or buyer to come up with the difference. If the bank does not change their position I am going to find out how to file a complaint against the bank. Major banks seem to be going out of their way to undervalue properties. WE have heard from others that the appraisers are instructed to make sure they come in low on value. Do not know if this is true but that is what I am hearing.

Thanks for all the information provided Active Rain. I will review all the comments to see if I can come up with additional arguments on the value, etc.

 

Mar 04, 2010 06:39 AM #50
Anonymous
Pamela Crowley

It would be extremely rare, and something I'd never experienced, for a bank or lender to demand an appraiser come in with a "low value".  The vast majority of the really low values coming out of these lenders these past couple of years are typically from one of their automated valuation models, known as AVMs.  I have numerous stories and evidence from appraisers all over the country about AMCs and lenders demanding that appraisers should either change their appraisals to match some low-ball, totally unjustified AVM value, or even for the appraiser to qualify each 'sale' listed in that AVM for them, for free.  The appraisers are being unbelievable pressured by these AMCs and lenders.

Then again, there is always the very real possibility that the property just really isn't worth what so many others want it to be.  That does happen a lot also.

Another real possibility is that the 'appraised value' you are being told is from their AVM and not from the appraisal.  Have the borrowers demand a copy of the appraisal.  Most of the AMCs also use 'conversion' software programs which alter the appraisals.  You might want to have your borrowers send a copy of what they received from their lender back to the appraiser so the appraiser will know if their appraisal has been altered.  The appraiser cannot discuss the appraisal with anybody other than their lender client, and with FHA only with the DE Underwriter, but sending them a copy of what the borrower received will help appraisers and ultimately all of us, consumers included.

Something that lenders have done for many, many years is blame the appraisal for declining a loan, when in reality, they don't want to close that loan for another reason, or a number of other reasons.  It's just so easy for them to say it was the appraisal that caused the problem instead of something else.  "It wasn't our fault, the appraisal didn't come in where we thought it would."

Mar 04, 2010 09:18 AM #51
Rainmaker
173,379
Richard Glesser
North Country Appraisal Services - Gaylord, MI

Andrea - Keep in mind that the Field Review did not have the benefit of an interior inspection which enables the appraiser to note the updates you mentioned.  As stated by Pam, lenders often use appraisers as the scapegoat for declining a loan for reasons they prefer not to disclose.  My suspicion is that this is the case since the original appraiser not only estimated the value, but supplied additional comparables requested by the underwriter, very likely expecting that they were not available. 

Maggie - I'm glad this is working out for you.  While it may not culminate in closing this deal, it's imperative that you follow through and get this appraiser out of the profession so this doesn't continue.  (Having Pam advise you is similar to having the Yankees bat for a Little League Baseball Team - she's the best!)

Jesse - As always, your comments are right on the mark.  I may add that the appraiser who signed and should have inspected the property was assigned in the FHA docs for this file and obligated to complete it personally.

Rick - Some questionable statements in my opinion with a couple redirects: I believe FHA does now allow use of clear MLS photos but comp must have been viewed within legal limits (important clarification in my rural market where often homes can't be seen on wooded acreage).  Second, even if two Certified Appraisers worked on a file, the one who signs and must have inspected the property is the one to which the FHA case number is assigned.

Final comment: When contesting an appraisal, it is best to look for factual errors within the report where errors cannot be viewed as subjective.  For example, subject age, site dimensions, or size are way off or comparable data does not agree with sources listed such as the MLS.  Also defining a neighborhood but using comparables from outside defined area without explanation.  There are appraisal guidelines but the key element is explanation since the appraisal report must be, according to USPAP, understandable to the Intended User.

Mar 04, 2010 12:06 PM #52
Rainmaker
98,887
Rick Phillips
Frankly Realty - Old Town - Alexandria, VA
I care about you and your transaction.

Jesse,

Noted, re the cert line.  I still think there's techincally a way, within USPAP to do both ... but once you throw the fannie mae form into the mix, you're correct--you must follow 25 more items.  Anyway, like I said, it's just one of those things that I never bothered to learn b/c there's really no reason in my small office of two people to do it any other way :)  But thanks for pointing that out. 

Maggie,

Glad you found out the answers.  It's not actually "fraud," but it is a "cheating" of sorts, and there are some pretty in-place penalties for appraisers who take shortcuts like those.  And still, it would be interesting to find out if the woman you met at the property is licensed, a trainee, or otherwise just a helper.  I think the state will come down harder on the guy if it's the old case of the unlicensed trainee.  In VA it's a pretty steep fine and a loss of license for a certain period and then a restricted license after that.

Mar 04, 2010 02:56 PM #53
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Rainmaker
307,627

Maggie Dokic

CDPE, SFR, Pinecrest | Palmetto Bay |
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