You Can ONLY See This Kind Of Thing PRE-DRYWALL - 2 of 3

By
Home Inspector with Jay Markanich Real Estate Inspections, LLC

Truly, you can ONLY see this kind of thing PRE-DRYWALL.  This is the second of three posts, all on the same house.

Staircases are very important.  They typically have their own structure, which is a "balloon" structure, and it can extend from the basement all the way to the upper level.

The stairs themselves are typically manufactured elsewhere, and brought to the site to be installed where the plans direct.

Stairs can carry a lot of weight at one time - either from people or belongings.  How they are attached to the structure around them is very, very important.

This is a typical staircase.

It is installed in the basement, extending from the basement level to the middle floor of the house.

There is nothing unusual about the stairs.

What I did find unusual was how they were attached to the stud structure.

This is the kind of thing that would only have been discovered during a pre-drywall inspection as this basement is to be finished.

That means that the studs will be covered inside and out with drywall.

It also means that the underside of the stairs will be covered with drywall, per fire code.

This long staircase was very weakly attached.

IN TIME IT MIGHT HAVE EVEN COLLAPSED WITH SOMEONE WALKING UP OR DOWN THE STAIRS!  I MIGHT RESTATE THAT:  IT LIKELY WOULD HAVE COLLAPSED WITH SOMEONE WALKING UP OR DOWN THE STAIRS!

Amazingly, the staircase was only nailed on it a couple of places.

With nothing spanning the gap between the stairs and stud, like sheathing material or shims, the nails are already bending downward.

I counted 10 nails total!

All were bending down.

Even at the top of the stairs there is no attachment anywhere.  The staircase is literally floating 1" from any support on the sides or top!

To me this is scary!

In a couple of days this area was slated to be entirely covered with drywall.  That drywall would have done NOTHING to help support the stairs.

When I stood at the top of the stairs I could actually make it bounce!

My recommendation:  ten nails is not enough to secure a staircase, even with the gap between stairs and studs filled!  Don't ever think that a pre-drywall inspection is not necessary.  Even if these stairs were "tacked" in place, with the intention to get back to them later for proper installation, the time between tacking and proper nailing should only have been minutes.  Leaving something like this for after lunch, or in the morning, leaves it vulnerable for the mind to forget!  A big part of carpentry is safety and proper security.  This staircase was neither.

 

This is the second in a series of one, two and three posts regarding the same house.


 

 

Posted by

Jay Markanich Real Estate Inspections, LLC  

Based in Bristow, serving all of Northern Virginia.

Office (703) 330-6388   Cell (703) 585-7560

www.jaymarinspect.com


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Rainmaker
256,793
Tim Bradley
Contour Investment Properties - Jackson Hole, WY
Commercial Real Estate Expert in Jackson Hole, WY

Hey! Nails are expensive, ya know. And I'm sure they were intending to use really long drywall screws.

Aug 16, 2012 09:29 AM #13
Rainer
277,285
Steven Cook
No Longer Processing Mortgages. - Tacoma, WA
- Pierce, King, Kitsap, Thurston, Mason Counties

Jay -- that is the new "floating stairway" that is just coming into its own in new construction.  ;-)   Perhaps aided by the 7-11 building workers you comment on from time to time.

Aug 16, 2012 01:33 PM #14
Rainmaker
373,924
Donald Hester
NCW Home Inspections, LLC - Wenatchee, WA
NCW Home Inspections, LLC

Jay, It really seems hard to get people to embrace the phase inspection mentality. Like your find there,  it can be very important to have a second set of eyes looking at the project to make sure things are in order. Of course drywall is structural ; )

Aug 16, 2012 04:37 PM #15
Rainer
405,885
Randy Ostrander
Lake and Lodge Realty LLC - Big Rapids, MI
Real Estate Broker, Serving Big Rapids and West Central MI

Good evening Jay. With most Counties experiencing budget woes quite often building officials are too busy to do thorough inspections. Mandatory third party home inspections? No matter what we do to fix the corrupt will find a way around.

Aug 16, 2012 07:46 PM #16
Rainmaker
1,254,416
Jay Markanich
Jay Markanich Real Estate Inspections, LLC - Bristow, VA
Home Inspector - servicing all Northern Virginia

Linda - my tip off was going downstairs and feeling a bounce.

Lenn - I know you prepare your people well, even suggesting a home inspector at the drawing stage.  And I'm glad to find out that you have my blogs in your bag to break out for all to see...

S&D - I have heard of staircases falling under people's weight.  This is the reason why!

And those stairs have only been there about 45 days Kathryn.  They may have even collapsed before the final inspection!

Aug 17, 2012 03:21 AM #17
Rainmaker
1,254,416
Jay Markanich
Jay Markanich Real Estate Inspections, LLC - Bristow, VA
Home Inspector - servicing all Northern Virginia

Tim - you joke, but just yesterday I saw another new house where drywall screws were used to secure the attic pull-down staircase!

Steven - that 7-11 construction sure is getting around!  And way too much these days, hence the need for pre-drywall inspections.

Don - an engineer friend of mine had me do a pre-drywall inspection on HIS new house!  I asked why and he said exactly that, more eyes are better and he trusts my judgment.  I NO ENGINEER!

Randy - if they become mandatory then they have to get into other guidelines.  I think caveat emptor should rule the market.  You get what you get!

Aug 17, 2012 03:24 AM #18
Ambassador
1,096,923
Charles Buell
Charles Buell Inspections Inc. - Seattle, WA
Seattle Home Inspector

Jay, support of the stairs will be provided by structural grade drywall :)

Aug 17, 2012 10:19 AM #19
Rainer
170,274
Rob Ernst
Certified Structure Inspector - Reno, NV
Reno, NV-775-342-4767- Inspector & Energy Auditor

Hope these stairs were going to get carpet so at least when they fell the people would have some cushion. 

Aug 17, 2012 11:45 AM #20
Rainmaker
15,873
Peter Matyko
Keller Williams Realty Advantage - Oviedo, FL
Keller Williams Realty
Sounds like Holmes on homes is needed at times
Aug 17, 2012 01:27 PM #21
Rainmaker
1,254,416
Jay Markanich
Jay Markanich Real Estate Inspections, LLC - Bristow, VA
Home Inspector - servicing all Northern Virginia

I forgot that was out now!  Good thinking Shadow!  Can you send some info on that to my client?  Thanks!

Better to bounce, Rob, always better to bounce!

Peter - all it takes is some filler and about 20 more large nails!

Aug 17, 2012 03:07 PM #22
Ambassador
1,141,698
Debbie Reynolds
Prudential PenFed Realty, "The Real Debbie Reynolds" Your Clarksville Real Estate Professional, 931-920-6730 - Clarksville, TN
Your Dedicated Clarksville TN Real Estate Agent

Jay, I wonder if this was intent or just plan oversight or carelessness? Either way it is dangerous.

Aug 17, 2012 06:49 PM #23
Rainmaker
1,254,416
Jay Markanich
Jay Markanich Real Estate Inspections, LLC - Bristow, VA
Home Inspector - servicing all Northern Virginia

Maybe they intended to come back to it later Debbie and forgot.  Who knows?  But it is dangerous!

Aug 18, 2012 03:16 AM #24
Rainmaker
894,712
Michael Setunsky
Michael's Commercial LLC - Woodbridge, VA
Your Commercial Real Estate Link to Northern VA

Jay, a buyer would never know this after the drywall install. This definitely emphasizes the importance of a pre-drywall inspection.

Aug 18, 2012 05:44 AM #25
Ambassador
1,577,538
Tammy Lankford
Lane Realty Eatonton, GA Lake Sinclair, Milledgeville, 706-485-9668 - Eatonton, GA
Your Lake Sinclair Expert (706-485-9668)

Jay-  no runners?  I have never heard of a pre built staircase (other than spiral) and also never seen a staircase without runners and to the floor braces.  Also never heard of the bottom of stairs having to have drywall.  Obviously different codes, differnt areas, but I'm just wide eyed looking at this staircase.

Aug 18, 2012 06:10 AM #26
Rainmaker
637,561
James Quarello
JRV Home Inspection Services, LLC - Wallingford, CT
Connecticut Home Inspector

The bounce is for your step. Isn't that what everyone wants? 

Aug 18, 2012 06:14 AM #27
Rainmaker
808,800
Mike Cooper
Winchester Real Estate Sales, Cornerstone Business Group Inc - Winchester, VA
Your Winchester, VA Real Estate Pro

Jay, you are so right.  It wouldn't take a whole lot of weight to bring those stairs down.  I see this kind of shoddy craftsmanship a lot with our contracting business.  Buyers need to beware and need to be proactive and have a home inspector visit the site throughout the construction.

Aug 18, 2012 06:19 AM #28
Rainmaker
1,014,094
Gary L. Waters, Broker Owner Waters Realty of Brevard, LLC
Waters Realty of Brevard, LLC - Melbourne, FL
Personal Service, always.

Enough has been said about having a bounce in your step...so I will only say this "What does the builder say when these are pointed out?"  Something like "my bad...?"

Aug 18, 2012 06:27 AM #29
Rainmaker
1,254,416
Jay Markanich
Jay Markanich Real Estate Inspections, LLC - Bristow, VA
Home Inspector - servicing all Northern Virginia

Michael - drywall covers a multitude of sins.

Tammy - pre-fab stairs have been out for a long time.  The underside is protected by drywall to satisfy the fire code when there is finished space.  That way a fire cannot spread so easily or quickly.

Jim - the bounce makes it easier on the knees.  And it gives you a good attitude - a little bounce in your step!

Mike - I always look at staircase nailing.  One of my things I guess.  I am about 250, not that heavy, about your basic fullback, but if I can make it bounce it is not secure.

Gary - just saw this, after using the phrase in my answer to Jim!  Clients have called me saying that the entirety of my list was "already on the supervisor's list of things to do."  He just had not gotten around to them.

Yeah, right...

Aug 18, 2012 02:00 PM #30
Rainer
72,412
John J. Woods
Aardvark Appraisals - Palm Desert, CA

 

   You don't mention if you've dicussed any of this wtth the building inspector or the builder/contractor/framer/drywaller.  And in looking at the pictures, it appears that there is no 'firestop' blocking along the stair line in the stud bays, which I believe is required in the national codes.  Although I can't imagine how the builder has let 45 days go by without more progress in the area of the stairs, some of the jurisdictions that I've worked in will allow the rated drywall to be installed between the stair stringers and the studs without the fireblocking/draft stop if it's continuous from the lower floor to the upper and the stud bay dead space doesnt' exceed a certain height (usually 10').

   Many framers are directed to build the stairs so that there is about a 3/4" gap between the stair stringers and the studs so that the drywallers can slide the 5/8" drywall in between and meet the code requirements.  That's frequently why there's minimal nailing to 'tack' the stairs in place.  But even then the framer or stair builder has a responsibility to ensure that the stairs are safe for travel, even during construction.  It would seem that this may have been the goal if the stairs were 'pre-fabbed' and the wall studs were already in place with an extra 1"-2" total space.  When the stringers are nailed flat up against the studs and then the risers and treads installed after (amateur), the drywaller has to cut around each stair nosing and there's usually not sufficient backing in place between the studs by the framer so the drywall 'floats' in places and can easily be broken off into some of the stud bays down the line by an errant foot on the stairs.

   Many framers will 'hang' the stairs in place and send someone back to nail or screw the stringers right through the drywall into the studs after the drywaller has hung the stairwell drywall.  Some builders will even arrange to have the drywaller hang the rock in the stairwell early on before the stairs even go in, if the stairs are to be built in place.

   I'm not claiming that any of this is what happened in this case because I don't know, but there are many ways to 'skin a cat'...

 

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Aug 18, 2012 09:44 PM #31
Rainmaker
1,254,416
Jay Markanich
Jay Markanich Real Estate Inspections, LLC - Bristow, VA
Home Inspector - servicing all Northern Virginia

John - no, none of this is discussed with the supervisor, et al.  The supervisor was to have his walk through with the buyer after my inspection.  He does not even want to speak with me.  The drywall was scheduled to be installed the next day, sitting throughout the house.  These stairs had been in place for many weeks.  If properly nailed I am not sure how, or why, drywall would be installed between the studs and stairs.  This is to be a finished basement so all this gets covered with drywall, including the underside of the stairs as fireblock.

Aug 19, 2012 03:56 AM #32
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Rainmaker
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